oh and Jess, thanks for making me want to write on the D blog

Qwaider

yes, my experience shapes my perceptions; i tend to think it’s quite normal… but i am not assuming all women are like me and all men are like my x, i assure you…

i have seen how divorced men suffer, i’ve seen how long it took them to deal and how society treated them… yes, there are assumptions and prejudices, but even in the midst of all that, there is a room -no matter how small- for understanding…

as for wives and their careers… it’s harder to maintain a career without affecting her duties as a wife and a mother, not to mention that our society makes the husband expect the working wife to cook all the same as non-woeking wives and do all the house chores and study for the kids… even though she probably works from 9 to 5 just like him… he gets to bed and she would work all around the house… so would you blame a wife and a mother for choosing her family over her career? you would not blame a man who makes it seem like her only choice even if he’s not clearly stating it?

as for alimony and such post-divorce legal matters, trust me, the system favors those who cheat and succeed in hiding their resources… i’ve seen a judge sentence a father 300 egps per month to support his x-wife and 7 kids, SEVEN!!! there is no way on earth that can be fair, and to see that “father” rubbing it in his x’s face as they got out and gloating about how he used the system made me angry!

if you don’t believe that society is rather more prejudiced against divorced women, take the time to visit an egyptian court room, try to ask around on how a judge treats a woman and how he treats the man… how a judge would demean a woman claiming that “homa naqesat 3aql wa deen” by taking that phrase out of its context…

yes, my experience got me to this perception alright, but it did not affect my judgement and my realization that not all men are that judgmental of women, and not all women deserve the kind of support Jessy mentioned…

Consider this:
90% of all statistics can be made to say anything, 50% of the time
(and that statement is true by the way )

Resting the Issue in peace now, 0.1% of whatever is whatever…here, that won’t destroy the subject!

Rasha
Thanks, I think we’re in agreement too. Although, I am not a big supporter of claimed statistics that are not backed by any real statistical facts.
Look, your proximity to the matter completely destroys the objective view of this specific issue. I’m so sorry. But that is the case. There’s hardly ANYTHING in the human history that is 90% or above. Just think of that, read Jessyz previous NAssim Taleb’s post and then think a bit some more about those figures.

Insomniac
I’m really sorry that you’re suffering from that kind of life. But I would like to draw your attention that you’re being subjective and reflecting your own trauma on everyone else. While that might be a good place to start, it’s not a final resting place for this argument and I am willing to bet you anything that as time moves on and your understanding of the whole situation develops, you will start seeing other dimensions to this problem.
You see, not all married women are like you, and not all married men are like your husband. And although you acknowledged that “guys endure” and “not all”. But I can still sense the part about society being unjust, and all men being whatever… They’re all the same.
The fact that most people think that society is worse with divorced women and more slacked with men is really the stereotype that I’m trying to help everyone to see that is false, and becoming exceedingly overused and completely untrue. Men suffer too. With divorce comes a lot of other issues. Men have to support their kids, without having custody. That alone might be devastating for some men. Because believe it or not, there are more great fathers, than there are bad ones. More loving, suffering fathers than there are bad husbands. (Yes, I’m generalizing favoring parental emotions)
The issue of women and jobs is really not the fault of the husband. It’s her own mistake. There is no one that told her to be 100% financially dependant on the very person she hates and doesn’t appreciate otherwise. This can’t be taken as an argument that men are doing X to make women suffer. It’s because women really aren’t doing their share to improve their life and prefer being housewives at the mercy of the good manners of a man! ANY MAN… No matter how wonderful he is. So when he uses finances as leverage. Don’t blame him and blame HER.
The women is entitled to have, Alimony, her kids have child support. It’s mandated by the law and the Shariah. It’s not much, that’s known. But that’s because parents are supposed to SHARE these expenses. Before and after the divorce.
In the west, the courts destroy the man’s life, forcing to pay more than 50% of his income for this effort. While I don’t remotely claim that this is fair. I also don’t think that what goes on in our societies is unfair.

The financial side of the matter is certainly something to make people stop, think and wonder. In the case of men, it is. Mainly because with divorce comes mo2akhar (which is significant usually), and comes alimony, child support and the burden of starting a new life with someone else and the back breaking expenses that is associating with starting a new life. It’s not a joke I’m telling you, and would force many men to reconsider a million times. So this specific aspect is painful to both parties.

I totally agree that generalizing in these matters would do more harm than good but consider this: People like to cultivate sympathy.
And: Women, seek more sympathy than anything else (sorry about this one)

Jessyz
My dear, if you were not generalizing and attacking men. I wouldn’t have said anything. There is this notion, it’s all over your post and it’s about how men -the assholes- don’t suffer and how women -the poor tormented angels- are suffering. And therefore require more support and education and rights …etc.
Let’s agree to a point where we say, everyone suffers, everyone needs support, everyone needs education, BEFORE marriage, Before Divorce and let’s try to throw away all the society generalizations out. Know this. Your own SISTER would lie to YOUR OWN FACE to get your sympathy on this matter. So, don’t allow your tears and emotions to be unfair and unjust to the OTHER party because trust me, there’s a human there as well
Now I’m not accusing you of being unfair or anything. I’m just saying, it’s hard to know the truth in these matters. What appears as a miserly-cheating-beating-homosexual husband after hearing one woman’s claim might actually be the victim

RJay
You can read about the research here.
The study is not based or conducted in the Arab world, but I trust it more than what I would have had it been done in the Arab world because:
1) Men in the Arab world HAVE TO be tough, and now show they’ve lost or weak
2) The findings explain many manifestations of depression that we see in Men in the Arab world (like rushing to marry another, when they haven’t even healed yet)
3) Men in general don’t seek sympathy or understanding.
4) Men in general don’t like to talk about these matters while women, (and this is no generalization) would share their story with everyone they can. (even if it was using an alias to hide their identity)
You can also check out this and this
I find myself in a lot of agreement with you. especially when you say we all need to have more empathy to one another.

to All
Congratulations… This dialogue is the first baby step on the long road ahead to educate this society and married men and women that WE ARE DIFFERENT, we’re ALL AT FAULT at the same time, we ALL deserve sympathy and understanding.
Divorce is hard, it’s probably the hardest thing to live through. Because it’s one of those things that you just seem to never leave behind and forget. It’ll always be there in your past glaring at you
But what we can do, is educate and support everyone
I completely believe that women are better equipped to handle the loss of a husband than men losing their wives. Over the eons men have went and never come back. Be it to some other woman’s bed, hunting, war or whatever .. Women appear to have adjusted to the role really well. And that’s nothing to do with divorce or anything, just a thought that crossed my mind now
(and sorry for the extra jumbo comment, thanks again jessyz)

The other thing I would like to say that qwaider was very succesful at saying that as women we have got to stop generalizing and saying all men are bad (this point is regardless of divorce) i am sick of my girlfriends men bashing and i think its unfair and cruel
I can feel qwaider’s frustration and I can make an educated guess that he is some what mad at society for that , and let’s face it we are kinda responsible for that divorce affects both sides and let’s just tackle one case which is divorce without children just the 2 married ppl

Divorce rocks more than just the two ppl it rocks the 2 families and the friends and the extended families and anyone who hears about it so basically divorce rocks the very foundation of society especially arab societies since marriage , family and tradition are big part of the foundation of who we are regardless who was a bitch to whom (pardon the french)

We have all been wronged at different degrees whether by a man or a woman whether in ur personal or ur work life

The thing is we tend to keep banging our heads against the wall and trying to solve the symptoms instead of the problem we keep talking about the divorce itself and the cruel unaccepting society i agree with all that but what started the whole thing

Why is divorce REALLY on a rise in the arab world we need to talk about that !! not finger point or try to prove one of the genders is worse than the other

Finally i feel for u qwaider and i wish we would all have more empathy for each other seriously the only way we can change our society is change our perspective

To all the women out there : when u meet a guy divorced or not please dont automatically assume he is a horrible crazy abusive jerk

To all men out there : the next time u meet a girl again divorced o not please please dont assume she is a high maintenance cold calculating manipulative bitch

I’m not making this up this is the essence of most religions and God told us (Inn ba3d el thane Ethm) and islam was made for all ages meaning that to preserve our society’s balance (and our sanity) we must dare to believe that good is still out there and if u do that it will come to u

Again thanx jessy for talking about things that people don’t like talking about

As for Rasha and insomniac hang in there insha2ala khair u should also now that in the quran it says that after divorce god gives both parties rizk so u can go on with ur life )

first of all, jessy, i’ve been thinking about your ideas intensely since i wrote my first post @ D for Divorced… not because i am struggling with getting my own divorce, but rather because it was triggered by seeing a friend of mine who seems to be in a dead end unhappy marriage and me unable to even ask her if she was ok because i’m afraid i’d be intruding….

i have already thought of contacting my therapist and asking her of the possibility of arranging for support groups for divorcees (of both genders), although i thought starting out with women would be easier to relate to… the only thing keeping me back is that i currently think i have too many projects and this kinda thing is something i want to put my heart into…

which brings me to your argument with Qwaider…. (this will be long, ana asfa but out of respects it has to be on the blog of the lady who wrote the post)

Qwaider,

i can never claim men do not suffer as much as women when it comes to divorce and its consequences… but let’s look at it from the perspective i think Jessy here was talking about…. in egypt (i can’t really generalize the whole arab world on this one), most women do not have good or decent support systems, not even in their own families… within the same family, you can usually find more tolerance for the male’s behavior than you’d find for the female’s!! it may not be the case everywhere else… but for instance, when i was struggling to get both my family and my soon to be x’s family to understand that i wanted out, i heard numberless phrases that suggested the following:

- it is definitely and always the woman’s mistake if a marriage ends, even if the man cheats, and “el ragel may3eboosh gheer geebo”

- as long as the husband goes and sleeps on the same bed as his wife, he can do whatever he wants…

- e7medy rabena da gheero beyedrabo we mesh beyesrefo!!!

my mom said those words too!!! it’s sad that they held those arguments even when i was forced to say more and more shameful things he had done, they would look at the floor and insist on repeating the words avoiding eye contact with the hysteric woman i was!

it is worth mentioning that my x was not a miser and he never ever hit me not even jokingly… he cheated and he managed to play the worst mind tricks on me making me doubt my own sanity and self esteem which could have been more damaging than it is had it not been for the great friends i have and the average support my family gave me once they were convinced i was not a crazy woman like he kept repeating… i only believed i was not as crazy when i went to a therapist twice to get a proper consult!!

although he was not a miser, he managed to make me sign that i received cash he knowingly gave me to settle his invoices and claimed it was for me! he went on and on speaking to people we know about how much he’d spent on me and our kids as if it was a favor… and i am talking hospital bills not resorts and luxury stuff (i still admit he did provide a luxurious life at a point in our marriage)… he said inappropriate things about me, no decent man would say about his wife, especially if untrue….

i must also say, i know my mistakes one by one… i know where i have failed to be his ideal wife, but my only argument here is when a wife or a husband is being a bad spouse, the other spouse should sit and talk, discuss options, even if civil divorce is one of them, there is much less harm when ppl understand and decide together that perhaps they can’t make it together anymore… i sat him down when i first knew about his “affair” and asked him to let me go because i wouldn’t have it in me to turn my head and pretend i never knew or forgive him!

having said all that, i still realize my x is not the worst example there is… i mean a glimpse at other people’s tragedies gives me perspective and makes me thankful to whatever it is i had to go through….

i am sorry i drifted…

i also know guys who endure nasty wives, and i know of guys who have decent wives but can’t seem to find happiness in their marriages… and whenever it’s brought up i always say that if you can’t talk it out with ur spouse and reach common grounds, then divorce must have been allowed for a reason, a good one… men suffer, i can’t say they are insensitive just because i know of quite a few who happen to be jerks… but trust me when i tell you, a man gets more slack in the egyptian culture because it is a masculine society…

my own father told me he wouldn’t mind me being a divorcee if i were living in the states for example because there, there is a better support system for single moms and a less judgemental society, but here it’s always the woman’s fault even if she’s judged by another woman….

another aspect, in egypt, mostly the woman is financially supported by her father, then her husband… so after the divorce (especially if she has kids and the husband is using finances as a leverage to force her into staying in the marriage), it is much harder for the woman to find a decently paying job to support her and her kids after years of being a house wife or not paying enough attention to her career! while the legal system on the other hand does not drain the man’s financial resources with proper alimony or any other relevant payments, not to mention that the real amount of income can be easily undisclosed to sound much less!! i am saying that first hand even though alhamdulilah my dad is taking good care of me and my kids… but the thought of what it could have been had my father not been there, or had he been unable to support me makes me feel for other people to whom finances is an issue…

men and women are not all good and definitely not all bad and they are as creative as it gets when they want to make one another miserable… the man gets privileges because he can always lean on the stereotypes that women are hysteric bitches, just as the woman gets sympathy when she says how the man is known to be a jackass…. it’s a case by case thing and generalizing would only do more harm than good

Again, for me, the main purpose was awareness for single or married couples of how things are once they’ve stepped out of their vows… along with support for the divorced.
Have a nice day everyone